The recent racial riots in Urumqi, Xinjiang, China have triggered the shutdown of several social media sites and blogs, notably Facebook, Twitter, Fanfou (Chinese version of Twitter), Danwei.org, and more. This follows a similar Twitter blackout a few weeks back, prompting the question whether some level of control and censorship is required in the Chinese Social Media scene.
Summary of events
According to the Shanghaiist’s detailed event summary, “the spark came from Shaoguan, Guangdong, where Several Uighur were rumored to have sexually assaulted a Han Chinese female, based on a post on an internet message board. Then on June 26, violence erupted between the two ethnic groups as Han Chinese attacked Uyghur workers in revenge. Two Uyghurs were reported killed and 118 injured before local police said that a disgruntled Han Chinese worker who hadn’t been hired back at the toy factory confessed to faking the information to express his discontent.”
The protests in Urumqi were supposed to be a peaceful sit-in in response to what apparently many (anywhere between 1000 to 3000 allegedly participated) thought was a flawed handling of the conflict in Shaoguan. It was unfortunate that things got out hand.
Photo compiled by BBC, (via Shanghaiist)
Citizen journalism
Apparently, the fatal spark originated from the keyboard of an individual, a non-somebody. Citizen journalism or Social Media if you will, is the Read-Write-Web which empowers every individual to have a voice on the internet waves, and be heard.
The power of Public Relations traditionally vested in not just trained PR professionals and journalists, who are educated about cultural and political sensibilities, and the possible ripple effect of inappropriate news; These days in Social Media, any John Doe (or Chen Xiao Ming) can write/tweet about the la mian he had for lunch, or sexual misconduct by racial faction against another.
A Chinese Twitterer by the username of whshang remarked
“这些记者难道不知道自己的所作所为有可能导致局势进一步恶化么？
// twitter上的公民记者？。。。。。 何尝不是如此？”(Appropriated translation: “Don’t all these reporters know that every tweet can possibly deteriorate the situation? //Are (the effects of) online citizen journalists any different?”
Another by the username of bluekevin also commented:
“其实twitter还是很小众的 有些人总觉得自己知道的大众也知道 自己的想法也能代表大众的想法”
(Appropriated translation: “Actually Twitter has only a small (Chinese) audience. Some people tend to think that everyone knows what they know, and everyone feels what they feel.”
Responding to an inaccurate tweet about the Chinese embassy in Munich being petrol-bombed (it was in fact the Chinese Consulate, not embassy), Kaiser Kuo expressed his indignation:
Even professional reporters can unknowingly prompt undesired situations. A busload of foreign reporters and photographers in Urumqi were interviewing a small group of Uyghurs. The activity drew more Uyghur fellows who got vocal and the sizeable commotion was eventually dispersed by riot police.
Recipients of Citizen Journalism
Micro-blogging in the form of Twitter/Fanfou/Facebook updates has also at times got people micro-reading. As people get used to smaller morsels of information, it has become easier for them to react, forward to friends/followers, and trigger more reactions. Because of the lack of a proper and detailed context, or the patience to seek it, their reactions could be based on prior impressions of the subject matter, rather than the full context of the current information.
In a particular Facebook update by “Tank Man”, he expresses the sentiment
“Tank Man is sad to see repeated civilian killings in Urumqi, Xinjiang: over 140 dead (official) already :(”
The post drew mixed reactions: some well-read thoughts, and some reactions from individuals who apparently might not have known that the deaths could have been the result of the inter-racial riots, i.e. citizens against citizens, rather than the context “Tank Man” would have placed them in.
Some excerpts of “reactionary” posts here:
In Shaoguan, the false online rumour ignited reactionary flames of anger and hatred, which in turn spread in multiple waves via with further distortion. Techcrunch calls this the online mob. The social media angry mob spread to Xinjiang where vengeful emotions took centerstage, culminating in this week’s racial riots. All this might have been prevented if the initial false rumour was effectively killed, and further “discussions” effectively harmonised.
Another angry mob outside the Chinese embassy in Holland
Should social media be controlled?
This post seeks to shed some light on the role that social media played in the leadup to events in Urumqi, and discuss possible lessons learnt from this experience. In an outbreak of inappropriate seditious messages, can we rely on the combined “wisdom” of crowds to drown the negativity and provide resounding and enlightening direction? Do we have faith in particular Peoples to resolve differences amicably? Or should authorities shut down all public discourse? (No good news, no bad news. No news is good news!)
The ideals of free and objective journalism are noble. But when one is in an immense decision making position, with countless lives, and entire country’s stability at stake, risk-taking is an ill-afforded luxury. The Chinese government again made the decision to shut down social media sites that provided for local public discourse.
This form of action against free Internet speech is not unique to China, Iran also blacked out some social media during her recent turbulence, and Singapore back in 2005 shut down, fined, and jailed 2 bloggers who made racist comments on their blogs.
On the other hand, the state was trusting enough to invite foreign (professional) journalists on an official trip to Urumqi, Xinjiang’s capital and the site of the unrest, “to know better about the riots.” I personally follow on Twitter, 2 on-the-ground reporters, @malcolmmoore and @melissakchan who tweet accurate live feed from Urumqi.
Recall Jackie Chan in summer of 08.
He might be right. It seems from this Urumqi episode that civilian senders and receivers of social media messages in China do need some level of control and censorship.
Which eventually begs the question:
Will Jackie follow in Arnie’s footsteps?
This post is the personal opinion of the writer, who was brought up in a land of authoritarian democracy.
nicely put together. Pardon my ignorance on Californian politics, but what does Arnie say?
I do agree with Jackie Chen that Chinese people do need to be controlled, and honestly believe that if China were to suddenly change to a full democracy, the whole foundation of the country would fall into disarray. (That is not to say that a protracted transition to democracy over the course of say 50 years would not be greatly beneficial.) However, the problems and inconsistencies arise when Chinese control and ideology comes over peoples who are (in every sense other than politically) not Chinese.
I don’t think the chinese people are not ready for complete internet freedom yet. It is too much, they will NOT know how to handle it and lots of things can go out of hand. This was a good example of how things spread so and got out of hand. The same flip side of the coin i think it is important to learn from these lessons and it should be open as an example as how we make mistakes.
It is like people always need time to adjust to their power. All at once it gets to their heads.
For God’s sake. They can block everything here, but Can they block your brains ? Eventually they just keep raising your anger ………… to the point that there will be rebound ……..
first of all..Jackie chan for president !
secondly…poor nyugurs..
love your phrase, “micro-reading” and am stealing it .. thanks
democracy is not a thing, it is a state of mind, not at all applicable to cultures with their different states of mind .. look at russia
Brilliant contribution, Junde. I have been back and forth between China and Europe for the last six years and I struggle to get my head around all the complex social issues in this country. One thing I know for sure, though, is that too many people outside China have blanket responses to the reports they receive about events here (but please don’t blame the BBC and CNN). As soon as FB, Twitter et al. is back up again I will help spread your post throughout. By the way, I share Ben Ross’ view on this.
In the town Burleigh Heads. For years now we have been plagued by large demonstrations of youth. These large groups of youths which often turned violent were bought together by text messaging over mobile phones. This is more than a local problem constantly we here of parties gone mad because the address of a party is texted to anyone with a phone. With the advent of micro-reading the same is sure to occur through these platforms.
There are the recorded stories of young girls and boys killing themselves after one suicide had web pages built in their memory. So they copy cat suicide to get the same attention.
What we should all take into account is that this (micro-reading) is a new form of contact. The rules and regulations still need to be looked at on all sides of politics. If it can’t be China may be the first of many countries to take such action.
I disagree with Ben Ross and Bonjour Thomas.
Why do Chinese people need to be controlled more than people in say America or France? Is there anything that ”we” are born differently?
Of course it would be chaos if China suddenly change to a full democracy, but the question is WHY?
If the government has been trying to control people’s mind for decades, of course most people would lose the ability to think independently. It is not the people’s fault. If the government can start to expose people with fact and truth, teach them to think independently, to debate at schools… It would be a different situation for democracy.
Are North Koreans ready for democracy (and why)?
I disagree with Pandora.
”They can block everything here, but Can they block your brains ?”
Yes, unfortunately, they can block your brain. Most people here cannot read English. Even if you are born with a brilliant mind, you don’t even know what you do not know if you are ill-informed all your life. Are all people in N. Korea born with lower IQ? No. But they do not know what they don’t know, and they cannot think for themselves.
Sarah L., nobody has claimed that the Chinese need to be controlled any more than Americans or the French. Although I believe the reference to Jackie Chan is used tongue-in-cheek we should not misquote him. The key word is “still”. If you read Ben Ross again you might see that there is not much disagreement between you.
@jonimo, Arnie is all about being Fantastic.
“We have to make sure everyone in California has a great job. A fantastic job!”
More Arnie quotes here: http://bit.ly/fadoS
@gregorylent
Please feel totally at ease for taking it
I also came up with micro-processing after micro-reading but decided to self-censor. you can take that too. The problem is that after micro-reading and micro-processing some people have major-reactions
@Bonjour Thomas
Merci beaucoup. Yes, each media has their own agenda and it is unfortunate that China’s negative PR from historical events still affects media and audience intepretation of current events. I’m not saying that it’s actually all positive, but that media coverage can be slightly more in-depth. But I’d say the 2 twitterers I recommended, @malcolmmoore and @melissachan are do great coverage. By the way, you can still access http://www.twitzap.com, it works
@Sarah
Yes I agree, but it takes time to cultivate another generation. Singapore’s starting to do that too in recent years, encouraging creatitivy, discussion and debate in school. But I think China’s a totally different game, with such deep and recently complicated history, and foreign affairs. It’s a very delicate operation to slowly let loose the flow of information.
I do not think Jacky Chan was ”misquoted”. It wasn’t the first time he had made that kind of statement (I’ve seen many of his interviews over the past 20 years). ”Hongkong is chaotic”? Because people there can actuallly say what they think and fight for their rights? It is easy for him to say since he is not one of those who are oppressed. Ben Ross said he agreed with Jackie Chan, I don’t. That’s why I disagreed with him. I was explaining the reason why I think ”Chinese are too messed up to handle democracy”. (BTW, people once had the same doubts for Japan and US.)
Most of the Chinese I know are as well informed as cucumbers. Except for North Koreans, not many others can beat us. Do we need to be controlled even more? The gov already killed Rock in 1989. Mxx Zx Dxxx loved TV, because he saw it as a way to control people’s mind. He must be a hero for Jackie. Great minds think alike.
@Junde,
We had that ”generation” and ‘’spirit” which were killed 20 years ago. Even music was killed. I don’t know if you know, but it was a much free atmosphere before then.
The problem is when we only have one ruling party, of course that party would do what benefits the party and whatever helps them keep grip on power (I don’t blame them).
women like sarah l are the future of china..they know how to think for themselves, disagree, and debate with the best of them..
and smooth move with the xxx’s…
i think the main reason why people believe that china needs to be controlled at the moment is because of all the controlling theyve done over the past.. its a fear of the chaos that would surely ensue…
at the same time people like sarah l give me hope for the future..if great minds like hers can be cultivated in such supposed dry lands.. then something is working..
“chaos often breeds life when order breeds habit”
-henry adams..
@ Sarah L how has music been killed in China? Its everywhere you go. When I play a song from 20 years ago many people can sing along. I have Chinese friends that I play with who no more about western music than I do. Was 80’s music banned? If so then it’s a good thing as this music was terrible.
What loss of spirit? The spirit I have seen in China surpasses anything I have encountered in the west. It must have been pumping back then.
@ The discussion I am starting to think reading both western media and watching CCTV9 that it was more than a spat over a falsely reported rape. Why are we not asking about the responsibility of the sites like Twitter and Facebook in this? If this situation arose in the US, England or indeed Australia They would be shut down under the anti terrorist laws their assets frozen and management would most likely be facing charges.
@Len You got it. That’s what this post is all about - Chinese (Social Media) needs some level of control and censorship.
It wasn’t just about the one person with the false report, but all the people online who received the message, reacted, and forwarded it to more who reacted and forwarded in bigger waves. Social Media technology enabled these waves of reactions to exponentiate.
Also, let me try to speak for Sarah. I believe she was talking about Chinese Rock. Rock is an active expression of certain inner emotions and desires not effectively present in other forms of music. I believe you joked somewhere else to a particular concert pianist that real men do not play the piano. :p
For years all China had was Cui Jian and then the guy who grew bald singing the song about being a little bird who wants to fly high and away. For a People with such rich history and culture, there should have been more local rock music back then, and Chinese rock music would have progressed on to the world stage by now.
[...] Junde из guangzhouer.com опубликовал заметку под заголовком “Джеки Чан был прав на счёт, что китайцы нуждаются в кон
@Junde 15 years ago a man opened a bar in Zhongshan. I play in a band with the lead Guitarist of the original band that played in that club. He is a local Zhongshan man who speaks English at what I call a Native level. He plays guitar that would near Carlos Santana. He hears a song once he plays it. He is a Judge in the Zhongshan middle court. He started playing 10 years before he walked into that club. He knows every rock song ever written and his blues is the finest I have heard. If rock was not around 20 years ago Where was he’s inspiration.
I am someone who started playing keyboards at 5 I turned to guitar 40 years ago now. I have a total respect for any form of music. From Vivaldi to Sid Vicious. If my humor portrays otherwise you should know me by now,
If Sarah L wants to join these discussions she must learn to receive and give when it comes to comments. She is good at giving. I am sure she also good at receiving. I do not understand your constant need to defend her. She has a good brain of her own and I am sure she can use it
On topic: The sad part is I believe we have lost fb forever. I hope I am wrong I will defend China in it’s stance. China does need on a very large scale to keep its very multi cultural society harmonized. Not an easy Job. I agree this new micro reading technology has just had a very big wake up call and is on the verge of collapse. If the same thing happens in the states it is over.
@ Junde,
Thank you, that’s exactly what I meant.
@ Len,
I understand you do not know much about what happened in the past in this country, but you could check on some recent ”history event”.
Cui Jian was a super star, even my parents knew his songs (now Rock has become something alien to them, thank to the mind-controll geniuses) Not saying how great the music was then, but it was going to a direction that made the gov worried, so they killed it before it had a chance to grow. That’s why today we only hear the mindless Chinese pop (which doesn’t have soul. So it’s not dangerous for us Chinese who need to be controlled.)
”What loss of spirit”? Maybe the spirit that got all the stxdents killed 2 0 years ago?
I saw hope, fear and confusion on people’s faces when ”it” happened. People were ready. Many of them were secretly tuning in ”voice of amerixxx”(which was illegal) every night to hear what was reallying happening ”there” (because they do not believe what tv told). There were actually gov officials (i.e. the General Secretary Zhxx) thought it was time to change too. It was so close… Then they did everything they could to make sure that ‘’spirit” was killed, and I have to say they did a pretty good damn job.
@ me
”i think the main reason why people believe that china needs to be controlled at the moment is because of all the controlling theyve done over the past…”
Exactly.
And most of the businessmen (foreign or local) tend to like dictatorship because it gives ‘’stability” which is good for their business. Who cares about the poor and oppressed (which is the majority in this country)?
@ Len,
Junde wasn’t defending me. He knew what I meant because it could not be more obvious what I was refering to.
Yeah, I know 3 Americans who speak perfect Chinese and know more Chinese pop music or anything about China than I do, that tells a lot about all Americans.
My hometown is a tiny town with a population of 620,000 only. No one person there can speak English better than the average salesman in the fake watch wholesale market. There are probably one out of 10,000 ever own an English CD. And that’s not the point. If ”it” didn’t happen, we may not have Chinese Beatles or Rolling Stone, but we probably would have had Chinese Red Hot Chilli Pepper or Coldplay.
It is not something that Junde and I made up. It is what the gov had done and was already written into history (you can find tons of research papers if you are interested). If your Zhongshan friend does not know anything about it, I guess he is just more politically retarded than I am.
And now the discussion is so far off topic it can never be recovered. Thanks agin Junde and Sarah L.
“If you cant win change the topic”
Sarah L and Junde For some adult conversation on this topic please see
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/09/AR2009070902425_Comments.html
@ Len,
Wasn’t you the one who asked ”what music” and ”what spirit”? And by the way, it is not ”off topic” since it is exactly about ”Chinese being controlled”.
I think many are worried that we may some time in the future see a repetition of the chaos and violence of the 1960s and 1970s. Nobody wants that, of course – not the business people and not Sarah L.
The problem is, risking offense to my hosts, Chinese people have a hard time keeping a level head whenever anything is discussed or debated. Things all too easily turn ugly, with accusations and threats. I have plenty of examples but I will spare you, as I am quite sure you can conjure up many more than I.
(Thanks Junde, after reading your piece I was inspired to write my own for the China Daily forum and after going through the filters and moderators they published it
China VS Facebook
It’s obvious why social media sites Facebook, Twitter and Fanfou (Chinese version of Twitter) and blogs Danwei.org, Chinasmack.com have been blocked in the PRC.
Given recent events in countries with social unrest like Iran, China has had the opportunity to investigate the role that these communication tools have played.
And if the reports are true that these sites have been used for organizing protests and disseminating information then it should come as no surprise that these would be controlled or shut down.
Time for some context and history.
Rewind back to the USA circa 1960s and the civil unrest particularly in the South and you can bet that the authorities would have shut down these communication tools. (Cell phones, social media sites, blogs, whatever)
Fact is if these are being used to organize violence or to spread false rumors then there is no choice but to act.
A poll conducted on Huanqiu.com said that 81.7 percent of online respondents supported penalizing the website (Facebook) because users had formed groups in support of Uygur residents in the area, the People’s Daily Newspaper said. (from examiner.com)
Fast forward to Shaoguan, Guangdong and the spreading of the false claim that a rape had occurred.
Look at what happened as the rumor was spread, people reacted and they reacted quickly, and people are dead as a result.
What happened in the Northwest after that is known to all.
Once a rumor is believed people will turn out en masse to protest or to fight.
This is not to say, that all social media is bad, far from it.
In fact, both President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao have pages on Facebook. (Mr. Wen is one of the most popular politicians on the site)
Like most things they can be used for good and for evil.
Ordinary folks like myself use sites like Facebook to keep in touch with family and friends.
We upload our travel photos for others to see and we can look at the events we have missed back home.
Social media sites have become very personal tools that are used everyday.
And when they are taken away so has our connection to those we love and our outlet to the world beyond borders.
Clearly recent events have shown the need for some kind of control over these communication tools.
False information can not only be hurtful but it can be used to divide peoples and wreck havoc.
And using them to organize acts of violence can not be tolerated.
So what can be done?
I am afraid there are more questions than answers.
But a way has to be found so that law abiding citizens are not caught in the cross fire. (and can continue to benefit from this technology)
And those who would use them for evil are found out and punished.
I had seen tons of ugly and scary discussion/comments on many American websits during Obama’s campaign. I knew it didn’t mean most Americans are ignorant violent racists. Anyway, that’s not the point. I do agree that ”Things all too easily turn ugly, with accusations and threats” here. I think what’s important is to ask why.
Why do only people from communist/former communist countries have that kind of icy stare?
The point is - half of Americans voted for Bush, but even if half of Americans wanted dictatorship, they cannot do it. It would be very difficult (because the president, Congress, and the courts… all have power), unlike China.
Because that one person’s several ”mistakes”, so we are too messed up today (thank to him) to listen to two/different ”vioces”, but if there is only one voice, we will always be so messed up.
Why do Chinese are all ignorant and uneducated of racism? Because we never learn it or discuss it when we were at school. Because we’ve been taught since we were kids that our Han people are kind and generous big brothers and we take care of the little minority brothers (so they better be grateful). There is no such a thing as racism or ethnocentrism in our big family, why bother to teach something that does not exist? And when we say ”we are not racist, we just don’t like blacks”, we meant it. Why can’t you understand?
I think we all know what caused ”the chaos and violence in 70s” was everything was decided by one person, one power (and we still have ”one power” today). Of course that one power today is more sane (yeah that’s a relief). I am grateful every time I think ”fortunately we do not have a kim jong il in the office now”.
BTW, nothing against businessmen. Stability is important for business. Chiquita company pays Colombian terrorist money (to ensure the staff’s safety) while knowing the money would be used to buy more weapons that kill innocent women and children. Can’t blame them. It’s just business.
Wowowo, JD , ur article sure ignite the flames.
seems like there are really alot of grievances and political differences on this piece of land
@Sarah L., the Americans have a way of using English quite to themselves, so I wouldn’t mind the “f**king this” and “g**damn” that if I were you. Bigger, better, higher, further has always been a part of their culture, and since they exhausted all the superlatives in the English language long time ago they need to resort to very offensive words and lots of CAPITALS. Hehe, I know American readers of this will object, but that’s alright. I am only teasing.
Back on topic: Control vs. freedom is a tricky issue indeed, but most responsible governments seek to find the right balance for their society. Everyone can see that the crackdowns on freedom of expression in China are accompanied by efforts to open up in a way that doesn’t jeopardise “harmony” (consider this experiment at a primary school in Wuhan: http://www.whydemocracy.net/film/3). This discussion will (and should) never end. Too bad it has to be conducted in English (which makes it inaccessible to most Chinese), or, if it happens in Chinese, opaquely.
I didn’t mention anything about racism, but as I don’t understand the quote “We are not racists, we just don’t like blacks” I would ask that you explain. I gather it has to do with the misbelief that the Han are always the kind and generous big brothers, but how can you label a group of people and not be racist?
@Andrew_gz, thanks for bringing up the response to the civil rights movement in the US in the 1950s. I was thinking the exact same thing. And the way local authorities dealt with this was quite different from the federal response (which I gather was mainly focused on maintaining order). I see more parallels, but that’s for another post.
By the way, Andrew, was it during the “Great Leap Forward” that China had the largest steel production in the world, but there were no steel utensils or door handles to be found anywhere in the country? You probably know where I am going with this: I believe the Huanqiu survey you refer to has little legitimacy in this discussion. Who conducted the survey and who constituted the surveyed population? Even if you have answers to these questions, I would be inclined to seriously doubt them. Which, of course, feeds into Sarah L.’s point – with no transparency or accountability in the gov’t or the media what can we possibly believe in?
@edward, I see different views here but no flames. Let’s not ignite any.
if you say there is “control” in china, i believe; if you say there is racism in china, i don’t. in case of fire emergency, shutting down the power, cutting the gas pipe are the right things to do. truth is plain & simple, but why the world is so complicate to understand, because people cheats. just like businessmen, they want to take advantage over you, they will first “pack”, and make themsevles look like giving you benefit. pandas are killing themselves by eating bamboo, a “food” with nutrition close to zero. uyghur is just a tiny river in the world, if they refuse to learn how to migrate to the sea, they are drying out.
You’re quite right BT, lies, damn lies and statistics.
But this survey has legitimacy in that it is probably a pretty good reading of the man on the street.
And because it does exist, it and the like are feeding into and no doubt contributing to a widening ethnic gap.
Which of course goes to the point that the media here is not one based in investigative journalism but an attempt at harmony. (With CPC characteristics)
Ask the majority here how the minorities have been treated and they will point in glowing terms to an array of affirmative action programs.
So much so, that they wonder why anyone in such a position, would have anything to complain about.
Some might even envy this preferential treatment while others are resentful.
There is a strong belief that the minorities are an important part of the make up of the PRC and that much has been done to allow them to also benefit from the economic miracle that is the New China.
Of course, what is not understood, is that no matter how much you may give to these people there is an underlying desire to be one’s own master.
And that is not going to go away any time soon.
When you want to take over such a big country as China,then you can not use your common sense to think of it.
“large population,and most of them are not well-educated.”
——they are easy to be goaded on! And they also have problems to make out what is right and what is wrong. I don’t think China government want to control ppl’s minds,so that they’ve lost their ability to think independently. (yeah,it could be like this in the end. but that’s what they want to see at the first beginning.)In fact, they just think it could be the best way to prevent the bad things happening from some ppl who are holding extreme views.(in such a big country,this kind of ppl are everywhere.)
ooops….typo.
it should be “(yeah,it could be like this in the end. but that’s “NOT” what they want to see at the first beginning.)”
@ Bonjour Thomas,
I think you misunderstood. My last comment was not for you (that’s why I didn’t say @ BT ). I was responding to a couple of your points (of course you did not mention racism. I did.), and the rest was just what crossed my mind at the moment.
It’s true. I don’t know anything about American language culture. They may have said ”fxxcking” ”gxxdamn”, I thought it was French. They just said things like ”kill n*gg*r Obama. Kill holder, geitner, and Biden the stooge.”, ” nappy headed fucking little retarded n*gg*r” ,”Obama n*gg*r is a black panther helping other n*gg*rs get away with murders”, ”You about to be ruled by the black man, crackers” and “Obama gonna bring sum change up in heah n*gg*r”, ”OSAMBO IS THE NAZI. A HERO? THE CHIMP IS NOT.”, ”obama and his wife hanging from a tree choking to death. Then I would cut them down and piss on them both.”, ” N*gg*rs are ingrates if it weren’t for slavery their asses would still be in Africa dying from aids, starvation or genocide. ”…… And when they randomly interview some people (I think it was on 60 minutes or something), many said ” I don’t know. I’m just worried. I heard he’s a Muslim…” If those people could spend a little of their precious time to check on the facts, they would know he’s always been a Christian and had attended the same church for over 20 years… It’s interesting since all the American I’ve met (about a couple of dozen) from work are Obama’s supporters, but half (actually what I saw on aol was more than half) of the voices online were against him (at that time). I guess the sane people are usually quieter (unlike me).
Not saying it is the case in China, but I do believe there are more reasonable and intelligent voices here that we just do not hear much.
(Why mention racism?) I was just giving a small example how our heads have become so messed up (we are well controlled since we were kids) .
”but how can you label a group of people and not be racist?” That was exactly my point (and I already explained how that has happened in my last comment). I would guess you are ‘well protected’ if you don’t know that ”China is one of the most openly racist country, but they don’t even know they are racist.” Lancia (ask Junde and Andrew if you wannna know more about her) is a good example, and you really meet people like her every single day in every single corner in GZ. She likes whitie though, she just doesn’t like black, Turkish, Indian, Arab people, not because she’s racist (no, she’s not. She said she’s not and she wasn’t lying).
”I gather it has to do with the misbelief that the Han are always the kind and generous big brothers”.
”misbelief”? That’s what we were taught at schools. Are you saying our textbooks lie?
@ Carol,
“large population,and most of them are not well-educated.”
”large population” We all know whose ”mistake” was that. And that is the problem when you have dictatorship, when that one person was absolutely ignorant about almost everything but could make decisions on everything.
The population is the problem of course. Beijing has real terrible traffic (if you lived in BJ, you would know it’s a nightmare)and the officials argue that it is because of the population. Why Tokyo (with even higher population density)has much better traffic? It is much easier to just blame on the things that you cannot change than actually doing huge amount of work to change the whole traffic system.
”not well educated” China’s expenditure on education as a percentage of GDP has been less than 3 percent for the past 15 years, among the lowest in the world. ”Green Path” policy has been around for years and why only few poor students know about it?
”I don’t think China government want to control ppl’s minds”
No, it is just a myth. It is just we are all like kids and we can’t think for ourselves. Let’s see who are those adults in the gov. I am sure people like the Shenzhen Mayor who’s recently under investigation for corruption, sex scandals, bribes, and responsible for the subsequent collapse of Shenzhen’s real estate market, is really rare.
@sarah….ummm…you are a cool girl….but just want to point out something i think you should know.
1)”large population”
Bejing has 17 million ppl and it’s 16808 km2….so the population density is 1101.43 ppl/km2
japen has 1.28 billion ppl and it’s 377800 km2…so the population density is 338 ppl/km2……and if we take Tokyo for example, it has 11.78 million ppl and it’s 2155 km2…..so the population density is 5466 ppl/km2.
~~~~okay, you are right. maybe the point is not about the “large population” when speaking of “population density”!!! But i am sure when you want to manage a company with 15 ppl and 500 ppl,it’s totally different no matter the office is small or big.
2)”not well educated”
~~~~i guess we all agree about the situation in China.
3)”I don’t think China government want to control ppl’s minds”
i know ppl will think China gov want to control ppl’s mind. But as i said, it’s the result, not the cause.
Recently, i watch the movie” The Da Vinci Code” again. it mentioned about the past history of religion conflict. We can’t deny if we want to maintain something which is worth to fight for(at least they thought it does worth),some extreme methods may be necessary—–especially when ppl who may not be able think independently for long time. (yeah, you may say”see! i told you that ’s coz china gov wants to control ppl’s mind. But, if you think further, is it worth to see ppl killing each other just to make them learn what is to “think independently”?)
~~~~i agree with you that China ppl should have the rights to know things happened in their country. But is it the best moment to talk about this? Who can be responsible for if there will have more ppl die by violence???
To choose when and how to open ppl’s mind up is not our duty, it’s the policy of China gov. And speaking of the corruption, sex scandals, bribes of Shenzhen Mayor,i think it’s just off the topic. Every country has this problem,not just in China. Ex-Taiwan president now is still in jail,and he is well-educated. ( tho i also like to discuss about corruption, sex scandals, bribes. :P)
@Carol
(1) Of course you are correct, the larger the amount of people, the more difficult it is to manage. But, I believe Sarah’s point was that it’s disingenuous to use the large population as an excuse for unrelated ailments. I present an example. You have a very, very obese person. Naturally, they run slowly and painfully. This is understandable. And, we can find ways to address this person’s obesity and hopefully get them back to a healthy state. However, let’s say this obese person also gets a 30/100 on their math exam. As an excuse, this person says, “But, I’m so fat!” Instead of presenting a sweeping excuse, we should analyze the problem to find the root(s) and act accordingly.
(3) “To choose when and how to open ppl’s mind up is not our duty, it’s the policy of China gov. ” I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you trying to say it’s the government’s decision to make, and we just have to shutup and take it and we don’t have a right to discuss this? Probably not, right? Furthermore, the government serves the people (为人民服务). This is a cornerstone of Western government but it is also enshrined in the constitutition of the Chinese government.
@ Carol,
I just remembered it when we learned Geography at school that Tokyo had higher population density than Beijing (then). If you have been to Tokyo, you won’t feel much difference (population density) there than in BJ. You are right, BJ has higher population density than Tokyo now, but my point was - that’s not the reason why the traffic is unmanageable in BJ. When BJ had lower density, it was a mess too. I am not an expert in traffic. I mentioned Tokyo and BJ is because they have been compared in many studies to help improve the traffic in BJ (i.e. http://www.ville-en-mouvement.com/articles/lu_huapu02.pdf ) over the past decade. And the fact is, as every expert has pointed out, the main problem is the traffic system (i.e.channelization facility, etc) in BJ (Tokyo just has a better system).
I will repeat it - the mistake (huge population) was made by one person (because we had only one power, one voice). And that mistake (and his other mistakes) are the reasons why we should only listen to one voice. We just keep walking in the circle.
Of course large population is a big problem, but sometimes it is just used as one of those handy excuses (for not changing anything).
”not well educated. i guess we all agree about the situation in China.”
No, I didn’t agree. It is the same logic here. As I mentioned, the gov’s expenditure (3%) on education has been among the lowest in the world for the last 15 years (while the economy grew at an average rate of more than 10% since 1990), and the educational system has been set up to produce brain-washed nationalists, they have made sure that people are not ready for two (or more) voices.
You said a lot of people are ”not well educated”, a lot of people have ”bad views”. How do you know that those people with ”bad views” are not in the gov? What if 70% or 90% of them all have ”bad views”? There are conflicts and different opinions in the gov , some support fast liberal ways, some oppose it. There are a lot of struggling, but of course those who supported fast liberal ways usually lose. So you are just supporting whichever side wins? And whichever side wins, their decision/policy is ”what’s good for this country” ? (but what if it could be the other side wins and a totally different policy)
”To choose when and how to open ppl’s mind up is not our duty, it’s the policy of China gov.”
That’s what N.Korean people believe too.
So you are saying if the gov’s policy was to have complete democracy today, you would support that too (there was a guy Zhxx in the gov who tried but was shut up, he could have won)? Just because the gov says so?
It’s interesting. It reminds me about some Conservatives would say ” well, he’s our president. I think we should trust him. I am sure he’s doing what’s good for the country”. It is just like how Christian sees Jesus.. ”well, Jesus said so. He must have his reasons… We shall not question.”.
”Who can be responsible for if there will have more ppl die by violence?”
Who’s responsible for those death 20 years ago? You tell me. How many protests in China every year? Tens of thousands. If you haven’t heard about it, you probably can figure out why yourself. How many people are arrested (or died) every year for various ill-defined ”crimes” involving ”threats” to ”the states”? (average) 6 digital numbers/year. People like Ai W ei W ei are not risking their lives for anything else, but for the poor and oppressed. They deserve to be put in prison because they do not care about the rich and middle class people (the minority) who are benefited by the policies.
It was not off topic. I mentioned Shenzhen Mayor (I’ll repeat it) because my point was what if 90% of the people in the gov are like him? (BTW, it is not just sex and bribes, he basically caused the real estate market in SZ collapsed!) Not saying they are, but what if those people are even dumber than my uncle Leo and more judgemental than my aunt Mary (sadly, they are)? Yes, Shen Shui Bian, Lu Wu Xuan… Again, that was my point - you cannot depend on the person in power (because no one can guarantee if they are the perfect ”philosopher kings” as Plato put it), that’s why you need a system that can control/limit the power and surpervision…(yes, there is not a perfect system in the world, just some are a little better.) How do we know if Jxxx and Hx are not worse than Shen Shui Bian? (the system has ensured that we’ll never know)
Back to the topic (this is not @ Carol or anyone)
As ”me” has pointed out earlier - ”why people believe that china needs to be controlled at the moment is because of all the controlling theyve done over the past.. its a fear of the chaos that would surely ensue…”
So basically the logic is, I believe it’s called ”Circular Logic” (where one bullshit argument is proven by another bullshit argument until your original argument is proven by itself) - because there was no democracy, so people are not ready for democracy. Because people are not ready for democracy, so we should not have democracy. Because we should not have democracy, there will not be democracy. Because there is no democracy, so people will never be ready for democracy….
Because we’ve been hearing one voice. So we are not ready for two voices (because we cannot choose which is good or bad). So we should not hear two voices. So we should listen to only one voice. So we will never be ready for two voices….
Thanks Junde for the fun. I’m done with the topic since I’m just repeating myself.
every mind is controled by something anyway, no matter what & where, by his or her experience, education, etc. in today’s world like china, the specific ” brainwash” is more and more difficult, almost a “mission imposible”. racism is not hi-tech, ppl does not need a thousand year to understand. ppl has enough information to make his/her judgement if he or she wants to. who knows ppl is not brainwashed by the west?
as a historical result, minorities are living in the bordering areas, (by racism in the old time? perhaps)comparatively poor. they need help, i admit. in the past decades, if the majorities did not help them more, they are at least treated equally.
certainly, there are problems, especially with the gov., but that does not justify “rascism”.
Thanks Sarah, great to hear from you as always. And also as always (or sometimes), we agree to disagree and leave it.
One day, when we’re old with our families and grandchildren and not a care in the world, we’ll meet and thrash out our political differences and stab each other with chopsticks but fail to silence the other because the mind is willing but flesh is weak.
I mentioned before that I won’t be a politician because there’s already too much dirt people can find on me online.
I concur, jolly good exchange. I’ll certainly be checking in often!
It’s useless for the Government to censor these sensitive events. People just know from this that the Government wants to hide something detrimental, like THEY forbid anyone of us to talk about the “June 4th Event”. If THEY are liberal enough, THEY can surely face up to all these negative things. But THEY refuse to show THEIR vigour, so THEY resist anything detrimental by blocking the social media. Thus, sites like Facebook, YouTube and Twitter are no longer accessable in China.
Jason, you’re a nice thinking young man, with great aspirations, that I’ve met. My article isolates Social Media and recent events in Xinjiang, to examine under a microscope.
It explains how Social Media can spread and blow up angry messages, resulting in many many angry people who didn’t really think, but just reacted and became angry, and told their friends who became more angry, so it needs some control. This is not just in China but also in other Asian and Western countries. Politics is not about governing smart, rational, calm, and peace-loving, friendly people. It’s making sure smart and dumb people can live peacefully together.
It’s not just about angry irrational dumb people. It’s also about how historical ethnocentrism and nationalism developed here (which has been the fault of gov policy..)
The information presented is top notch. I’ve been doing some research on the topic and this post answered several questions.